Bill Pearl & Dave Draper: A Conversation

Bill Pearl & Dave Draper in Seminar Video Download

Bill Pearl & Dave Draper A Conversation Summer 2005

On Target Publications Santa Cruz, California

Dave: I’m sitting here with Bill Pearl in his office in Southern Oregon. It’s a great pleasure for Laree and me to be here, taking a little vacation and driving up the coast to spend some time with my old friend and his family of friends. What we intend to do is record a few hours of conversation about various subjects and add the material to the seminar that took place at the Santa Cruz Bomber Bash about a month ago. I’ve formulated some questions and topics I’d like to cover and I know Bill would like to cover, those subjects that would be most helpful and interesting to you—and me—things I would like to ask Bill, or things that he might be interested in asking me.

We’re seated in a large room above a four-car garage not a hundred yards off Highway 99 in the small town of Phoenix. There’s space here for horses and cattle and fields of grain and lengths of wire fences. The office has the needed computer gear and printer and phone system, lots of natural light and white walls decorated with antique artifacts connected to old-time weightlifting and strongmen. There are endless floor-to-ceiling shelves filled with pristine and functioning antique mechanical toys as small as your fist and no larger than a breadbox. Wind them up or push a lever and they do things like swallow a penny or go in a circle pedaled by a mustached man in a swimsuit. There are hundreds of these still and silent originals ready to go. Bill’s a collector. Bicycles, tricycles and unicycles and over 40 old cars—a pre-1900 Stanley Steamer, a Pierce Arrow, numerous Ford roadsters—restored by Bill in his spare time—between sets, I guess. In another year he’s thinking of buying Laree’s car and adding it to his collection. It’ll take a little work but will fit right in…

I put together a dozen questions, and we’ll expand on them in the course of conversation, and see what we can gather, informing you of the things we’ve learned and think might be of importance or interest.

Not everything will be useful to you because we’re all so different. We have different body chemistry, structures, genetics, lifestyles and limitations and possibilities.

Bill: Dave, I’ve got to stop here for one second. I’ve got to make sure to say thank you two for coming up. I could have 500 people just sitting here watching. Medford, Oregon, loves you, and they love you, Laree, and I admire you so much. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to come up here to spend a couple of days with us. This has been terrific. Thank you.

Dave: It’s a pleasure for us.

This might be interesting to the folks: I know you use a variety of equipment; you use a lot of Life Fitness equipment, and of course cables and pulleys and different machines. And you train in your own gym, the Barn, which is on your property; it’s a real barn and is packed with the tools of our trade. But if you were to choose just one exercise per body-part using barbells and dumbbells, what would they be?

Bill: I would stick to the basic exercises we all know. I’d stick to deadlifts. I’d stick to squats; I would stick to military presses, heavy pulls, those type of things. I would stick to the basic movements on all of them.

And I have to make a comment here. Let’s just theoretically say there was just one best exercise for a particular muscle group and you were to do this for a period of time, and your body acclimated to that workload where you could no longer make any progress. You could bench press 400 pounds but you just cannot bench press more than 400 pounds. So what might be the smartest thing to do? Pick the absolute worst exercise you could think of for that muscle group and start doing this so your body would have to acclimate to that workload. The worst exercise could end up being even better for you than the best exercise, because your body has to acclimate to do the job. We can’t get hooked on the best exercise because that may be the best for a while, but to continue on it could end up being the worst.

Dave: That one single exercise won’t recruit that portion of the muscle that the secondary movement would. And it would provide a break from your favorite movement to which you adapted.

Bill: That’s exactly right, yes.

Dave: Good point. Now, for the chest—this is a tricky one. Most people choose the bench press; it’s universal. But I pick dumb- bell inclines.

Bill: So would I. Exactly. And I would try to keep my elbows high and try to pull the pectoral in as much as I could.

Dave: High in the deltoid, with less risk of injury, and much more pec involvement than the bench press. The bench press is just a popular movement, it’s the standard that everyone refers to. It works the torso, but the rigidness of the bar too often causes injury to the rotator.

Bill: You can lie down, which is comfortable, and you can probably handle more weight in that exercise so you feel bigger and stronger because you can press 200 pounds. You can only do inclines with 55- or 60-pound dumbbells. Ego comes into play.

Dave: And that’s something that we’ll deal with as we go along here. Ego is a big, important factor. It can get in our way, and it can really be a great motivator as well.

For back, the entire back, I like bent-over barbell rows for thickness and width and power.

Bill: I’d probably do some form of a chinning motion, even though it’s not a barbell or a dumbbell. I’d do a close-grip chin, a medium or a wide-grip chin. You can get your rhomboids in—everything—if you’re doing it with a single exercise. Or I’d probably pick some type of a lat pull-down.

Dave: That would have been my next choice, as I refer to the back not just for its thickness, but for its width and V-shape.

or lats, I would have picked a pull-down movement—chins, I love to do chins, and that would be my choice for that area. You like bent-over rows?

Bill: I like bent-over rows, yes. It’s an excellent exercise, but if I had to pick a single movement, period, and I had my choice between the single movement being the variations in the chinning movement and the one-arm rowing, I would pick the chins. You’re still using weight, because you’re using your body-weight.

Dave: And you could hang a dumbbell from your waist. Now we get to shoulders, and my choice is a front press movement, particularly steep dumbbell inclines. Steeper than the chest press.

Bill: My choice would be press behind neck, Dave, and I’d do them seated. That’s if the person has no shoulder problems. I’d use a relatively wide grip, and I’d start every repetition on the back and end it on the back. I would do a complete repetition, starting every single one on the back.

Dave: The press behind neck was originally my favorite. I can’t do it now… pain of injury… and I miss it. I thought maybe it’s not the healthiest movement after all is said and done. I love it, though, and I miss it and now I’m tempted to squeeze it back in.

Bill: It’s not healthy if you have chronic shoulder problems.

Dave: It would be my choice above dumbbell inclines because it’s less front delt; it’s more into the cap and rear. Choice areas and less often engaged.

Then we get into the ever-popular thigh area. And we have squats.

Bill: Squats are by far the best exercise. I think 258 different muscles come into play as you’re squatting. That’s probably the best single exercise an individual could do.

Dave: That’s everyone’s comment. The choice of champions across the board. Then, for me, for the biceps, I would choose a standing barbell curl.

Bill: I would probably choose a standing dumbbell curl. And the reason why is as I was curling, I could curl and supinate and pronate the muscle as I go; the biceps is a supinating, pronating muscle.

Dave: I like the barbell because of the little bit of power thrust I give to it, thinking in terms of a lot more than biceps working, get- ting a lot of upper back in the action, even lower back, and almost making it a systemic exercise.

Bill: A whole upper body exercise, right. It’s bigger than biceps only. And triceps; we haven’t talked about triceps.

Dave: My choice: overhead triceps extensions, barbell or dumb-bell.

Bill: Anything overhead or where the triceps are extended

because the triceps are a multi-headed muscle. If you’re doing any type of press-downs where the  are not extended you cannot hit them completely.

Dave: Press-downs only partially engage the triceps. Dips would be partial engagement as well?

Bill: Yes. You can’t work the whole head of the muscle pressing down. Lying down or an overhead action where the triceps are lengthened allows most complete muscle recruitment. The tris are extended and positioned for full action.

Dave: Midsection—there are just a variety of exercises for me. I like crunches and leg raises, hanging leg raises and rope tucks. I know I’m getting a lot of core strength from some of my bent-over row movements and some of the heavy work, shrugging and such that I do throughout my workout. How about you?

Bill: I would do some type of crunching movement for my abdominals, and I would do leg raises. Even though it’s claimed you have no such thing as lower abdominals; I don’t believe that’s true to the extent that you can get so sore you can hardly go to the john, so something’s taking place down there. And I take the time to do a lot of twists and side bends for the external obliques—my erectors and so on. I do a variety of stretching motions… good mornings and bends… in conjunction with my leg raises and sit-ups. We’ll probably do five or six different movements for abdominals on a daily basis; every six weeks we’ll change those particular movements. There are literally hundreds of midsection exercises that you can do. I wrote a book call Keys to the Universe; in that book we had over 380-some different exercises just for abdominals.

Dave: Each one can be just a slight variation or position of the body, and you get an entirely different affect. Which brings me to another question: We covered our favorite exercise per muscle group, and you’ll notice that they’re all the basics. I love to do oddball movements and little fringe movements that you can make up and improvise, but when it comes right down to it, the basics do the master building.

Bill: Other things that I haven’t forgotten over the years and I try to instill in people… some things that most people don’t do anymore: I still do a lot of forearm work, Dave, and I do a lot of trap and neck work.

Dave: Me, too.

Bill: And I do calf work on a regular basis. I really, truly do. I think those are muscle groups that are very important for function and balance. If you look at some of the top athletes today, they’re sorely lacking in trap development or forearm development. It’s almost as if it were a lost art.

Dave: I love to hit forearms. I’ll hit them twice a week. In fact it might be forearms that got me into my training. I had a pair of grippers when I was an eight-year-old, and I would regularly squeeze ’em this way and squeeze ’em that way, hitting biceps even as I intensely contracted rep after rep, set after set. The forearms and grip always fascinated me. Forearms begin my arm workouts today.

In my early training, beyond just kicking the weights around, and getting to know them—when I started to work out in a more professional way for competition, I was training six days a week. This went on for 20 years, six days a week, early in the morning, which I know is your favorite time to train. The workouts would run a minimum of an hour and a half, more towards two and a half hours. And that went on for years, starting when I moved out to California, when I worked out at the Muscle Beach gym.

When I turned 50, I cut that all back to five days a week. And when I turned 60, I cut back to four days.

My training is very much the same as it was when I was 25 and 30—exercise choices, combinations that I like, super-setting a lot, sets and reps, yet trying to hit everything twice a week instead of three—I just dropped days off the weekly schedule to allow more time for recuperation.

Our early training corresponds, but I understand your current training differs from mine.

Bill: Only in that I’m in the gym six days a week rather than four, Dave. I do my very best, all the time I’m in the Barn, when we’re training together—whoever’s there—I try to keep a positive attitude toward what we’re doing. Anything that comes up that’s negative, or someone’s taking too much time between sets and fooling around with my time, I get a little bit upset, because this is the only time I have for myself all day. And I’m not going to give that up. That’s all there is to it.

I also have the idea that if I’m not already happy with the way I look now, training six days a week, would I be any happier if I trained four? If I want to put money in the bank, I’ve got to stick money in the bank to get the dividends. So I’m still a firm believer that if you’re smart, the more time you spend in the gym—within reason—the more progress should be made. And if it isn’t physiologically, with me at least it is psychologically. If I’m not happy with what I’m doing, less is not going to cure my problems.

Dave: During the time I put into the gym, those four days a week, I like to really blast it. And I spend more time per workout; I’m there for two hours. Blasting it, to me, is not blasting it like I used to. I blast to the degree I’m able at this age. I’m exhausted if I do it too often, which I sometimes do, and I over-train. Still learning.

You spread out your training energy and input in a different way. I might do that if my gym was in my backyard. Bill has a beautiful set-up. His home is on a hillside, and behind his home a hundred yards away is a barn, in which he has his favorite pieces of equipment. His friends from around and about come to train with him every morning at about 4 am. 4 am!

Bill: I still travel a great deal, and I can usually get my workouts in before I go. Secondly, I want to take care of me before I try to cure the ills of the world. I want to take care of me. And if I do a good job of me, maybe I can do a good job with somebody else. But if I can’t take care of me, how am I going to take care of somebody else, Dave?

I use it as a way to do the best I can. I’ll give the world 22 hours, but I’m not going to give it 24.

Dave: I hear ya, Bill. And, why do I think all athletes—people who strive—are this way? If I don’t take care of myself first, I’m kind of pre-occupied with the lost workout the rest of the day. I’m a little edgy and distressed. At least that’s what I find; I don’t do nearly as good a job helping people around me. I’m very generous after my workout is complete. Before my workout, I’m a selfish bum.

I’m the same way in the gym. I have to have pace and focus. I don’t have training partners now. I’ve had great training partners in the past, and they were very important to me for a time. But now I train alone for a lot of reasons. Training partners are hard to come by; they might not be consistent or on time. I’m not certain what I’m going to be doing every day, I don’t want anyone making com- promises for me, and I don’t want to make compromises for anyone.

Bill: I love training partners. The gym is at my house—we have four or five guys there on a regular basis; they’re there, period. I have to go every day, because if even one person shows, he knows I missed. I’m obligated. Because that barn is there, I have to be there six days a week, because at least one of those guys of the four is going to show, and I can’t let these people down.

I also use it as a way of socializing during the day, because a lot like you, I’m a little bit of a recluse, and I think perhaps you are, too. And if I didn’t spend a couple of hours with people each day, I’d even become more reclusive. It’d be terrible.

Dave: We are not great socializers, you and me. We have friends and influence people, but we do not collect awards for Mr. Congeniality.

Bill: No, we don’t. Too bad. One thing I might add as we’re talking about training the way you and I have trained over the years is this; if I have a dad bring his son to me for training, I’ll suggest that he make sure he’s involved in a team sport to begin with, and have the weight training as a way of making him better at that sport. If you look closely at our background, people who have been involved in weight training by themselves as you and I have, we become almost as if we are “one” the rest of our lives. We don’t work well in groups. I don’t.

Maybe it’s because we’ve relied on ourselves all our lives, but this is the type of world in which we have to communicate well. I think weight training by itself, as a sole purpose, if you donate your entire life to weight training, you are a single-focused person, and that’s not particularly good for society, or for you.

Dave: Yes, I agree with that. I’ve never thought of that approach with a father and son, but that’s a good one. Team sports give balance to an athlete and encourage him to share, and see value in those around him. Look outward as well as inward.

Bill: Just try to make it so that you can become a better team person, a whole person, and the weight training will continue well for the rest of your life. You can chase physical fitness, but you’ll be a much better people person eventually if you’ve participated in team sports.

Dave: People I communicate with are already established in their lives, and they’re using the weight training to add health and energy and well-being to their lives. To get fit. Some have trained in the past and are recalling it as a fulfilling and enjoyable diversion. A few have been lifting as long as I and want to share the gritty lifestyle. It’s affirming and encouraging and informative. Engaging early on is important, yes, so you don’t get bound up in yourself. Weightlifting’s very personal. It is a lone sport, to you and those characters in the gym to your left and right, and that’s about as alone as you can get. You know and appreciate your gym companions, those who train hard and with devotion and share the same struggles and purposes that you do. And often, few words are spoken or need to be spoken. Camaraderie between lifters is strong.

Now, about motivation: What motivates a weightlifter in the beginning is usually the physical, the appearance—big, strong and shapely muscles.

Bill: The cosmetic aspects.

Dave: And for a lot of people, as they get older, it’s because of their health. They’ve been directed to the gym in their 30’s or 40’s by their doctors because of illness or injury, or an overweight condition, but as you grow in the sport, you learn there are so many other reasons to be training. You see so many other things that you’re gaining, beyond the cosmetics and, of course, the strength and good

health involved. You can train to such a degree that it can be unhealthy; that happens often, and you have to be careful of that pitfall, but there are other things that you discover, things that build character and strengthen the personality. Imagine the shabby mutts we’d be if we didn’t lift weights. You know, through the discipline and the…

Bill: That’s the word right there, Dave: discipline.

Dave: …and the persistence, and the enduring.

As you get older, teens through your 20’s, you discover, if you persist in your training, there are different phases you go through. You find yourself making modifications at certain periods as things are changing—demands, commitments, responsibilities, expectations. Through our 20’s our health is very good, things are clicking and spirits soar unless you’ve injured yourself or abused yourself.

The 30’s have a real strong head of steam to them; people think they’re getting old in their 30’s, but they can go and grow and get stronger, or re-gain their health and re-structure themselves if they’ve not started their training until those years. 40 has this little turning point that everybody’s aware of; I’m 40, I’m over 40, things are downhill from here. I personally saw that the 40s were incredibly strong years because I really knuckled down and paid attention to my life. My training was maybe not the primary thing in my life, but I depended upon it in a big way, a legitimate way, not obsessively or frivolously, but as a support and stabilizer. After a serious illness early in my 40s, I dropped a lot of body-weight and got into a very unhealthy state. And then, from about 42 on, I got into excellent shape through hard training and devotion, recalling and putting into play all those things I had practiced in my earlier years. There are great things happening to you through your 40s. I’m saying this because there are a lot of people who have observed us over the years, and expect that we know a few things—we’ve walked the path—and we can turn them on to a few things as they trail behind us in years. And we can, even though we’re individually different.

I’m just giving you encouragement that through the 40s there’s a solid road. There are a few potholes you have to step around, but it’s straight and it’s firm. Even so in the 50’s; you start to feel your injuries more, you feel the wear and tear more—I’m telling you what I’ve discovered, and I’ll compare that with Bill in just a second—yet I was full of steam right through my 50’s.

In the 60s, things have continued to change a little bit. All those little injuries and those little areas in the body that are troublesome are collecting and gaining my focus. And I don’t hold onto the muscle density as well. The thing I found at my age now, heading towards the mid-60s, is the loose skin problem. I have a little bit of a skin gathering that I don’t have the control of; I’m facing the initial disappointing aspects of that portion of my training, the cosmetic portion.

Other than that, my training’s going well. I cannot press nearly what I used to and the injuries interfere with exercise freedom; recuperation and repair have slowed down and stiffness arises. You fight the good fight, while accepting and letting go. Yet, some of me is going strong and getting stronger. Bill, can you give us some of your experience? I only go up to 63; you’ve got a few years on me. Do you recognize this pattern?

Bill: Same pattern, Dave, yes. I have to laugh—I’m smiling, be- cause I think I was still giving exhibitions in my 60s, actually getting on stage against the young kids in their 20s and 30s and still knocking heads. I can remember, I was at the European championships, and I think I was 62 years old, or 63, in Germany, and I was onstage, posing, and I was doing just fine, and then it dawned on me, you know, Bill, what you’re doing at this stage should be a young man’s sport.

Dave: While you were onstage you were struck with this thought?

Bill: Yes, I was. And I thought, you’re an old man playing a young man’s sport… it’s asinine. When I got off that stage, I told myself I will never, ever, take my shirt off in public again. And if someone were to offer me a hundred thousand dollars to do this, I would turn the hundred thousand dollars down. But one thing that came from this, because I no longer have a reason to have an attitude like you have, and some of the drive that you have, this has actually hurt my training. Because if I’m never going to take my shirt off again, if the only person who’s going to see me is my wife and she loves me for who I am, why bother to have my body change?

And if you don’t do something with a positive attitude, negative aspects are going to take place and you are going to go downhill. Because of your attitude if nothing else. I think it’s a very dangerous thing to commit to some- thing like this. I’m the type of a guy when he says he’s going to do something, come hell or high water I will not change.

Dave: It’s seems what you did, then, was lowered your goals.

Bill: That’s exactly what I did.

Dave: And you’re a particularly goal-oriented person. You mentioned that at the seminar. But this sounds realistic, Bill… wise.

Bill: I still train with the same intensity, but the body does not respond because psychologically I don’t care as much anymore.

Dave: I guess that’s healthy. I’m thinking maybe psychologically it’s unhealthy for me to still care so much. Is it excessive, I wonder?

When I wake up in the morning with a 45-pound-plate stuck in my mouth I’ll know the answer.

Bill: If you’re training as you have, and you’re suffering from injuries as you are, and you continue to acerbate these injuries, you might come to a time when you can’t exercise because you’ve injured yourself so much. That, too, can become very dangerous because you’d take away one of the things that you love the most in your life, because of not listening to yourself, or worrying too much about the size of your arm, or that someone’s going to look at you and judge you by your body and not your face and your head, and what comes out of your mouth… it’s not fair to you, Dave. It’s not fair.

Dave: Yes. I’ll think twice, three times, before carrying the heavy load too far. Keep a fair balance, a sane balance.

Bill: When I see someone like Larry Scott, or I see Reg Park, or you, I don’t look at your body; I look at your face and eyes and spirit, and I assess you from what comes from you, not your body.

Dave: I have a whole variety of non-devastating injuries, but I learn so much from injuries that I dare not complain. They are—I mention this time and again, and I believe it’s true—they are my greatest instructors.

Bill: It’s true.

Dave: They slow me down; they cause me to notice. They get my attention because of the pain or immobility, and they—the injuries—cause me to improvise movements and teach me how to train around them. I assess an injury, avoid what motion, groove or resistance is wrong and approach the pain to the extent that it’s not destructive—I don’t take myself over the pain barrier excessively and threaten the health of my body. I train around it.

And I’ve seen serious injuries get better. Muscles or joints I thought might be permanently damaged—time, age, wear and tear—and they’re only going to get worse from here.

My persistence and insistence upon training hard and not letting go paid off. Clinging to a dumb notion that maybe I could train around the mess, get better and maintain muscle mass and shape though my training ability was compromised… shoulders, for instance, in spite of the fact that I can’t press much anymore. So I’m finding that I haven’t lost my enthusiasm and drive due to those injuries that I thought were going to limit me. In fact, they’ve educated me.

Bill: One of your lucky things, though, Dave, is you have the knowledge to pull from. Most people don’t have your knowledge.

Dave: It’s a knowledge from training through it all, a knowledge one gains from experience.

Bill: Yes, over the number of years. Some people just don’t have the time or the desire to carry it to the extent that you and I have carried it. Some folks call that tenacity and determination.

Dave: Maybe we shouldn’t encourage it. Some call it obsessive, pig-headed, stubborn and dumb.

Bill: I can’t disagree, Dave.

Dave: Bill and I talked off camera at one point admitting that we are unusual creatures. We’re not alone, there are many out there like us, but we are unusual in that we’ve continued weightlifting insistently through the years—me, 50-some; Bill, 60-some years. We started some form of resistance training before we were teens. Push-ups, dips, handstands, chins, sprinting, spring set, grippers, a small heap of bars and plates.

Bill: I’ve trained for 66 years. I had the same habits and clutter as a kid.

Dave: 66. I started with my weights when I was, like, 12, so I’m in the 50-range. And this is without layoffs… boyhood consistency. We’ve taken it to such a degree that one might call it seriously obsessive. Dedicated is a nicer word. Devoted. All of these can be very positive, but they can also be destructive because you get too wrapped up in one thing. You know, get a life. But we’re lucky, blessed, that we’ve had a life because of it.

Bill: If you look back at our lives, probably the things we love the most, within reason, have come from what we’ve done, from weight training.

Dave: Yes, absolutely.

Bill: Beats working for a living. And all the awards and all the money that I’ve been able to save, and all the junk that I’ve gotten, it’s because of the industry, because of the sport. It has been extremely good to me, and extremely good to you. But by the same token, you and I both have tried to be very good to the sport. I’ve never prostituted myself, nor have you, not for the sake of money, that’s for sure.

Dave: No, money is a nice thing to have… it’s swell, that’s what I heard. I don’t know much about money. But, the training isn’t as it appears in its early stages—mono-mindedness, tunneled vision, sets and reps, habit.

It’s such an education, an enormous education. The experiences one goes through on the gym floor, contest preparation, competing, photo sessions, seminars, gym ownership, instructing and wadding through the cold business world surrounding the sport. Sounds like we’re old cronies here.

Bill: No, there’s no time during our lives that we stop learning.

The education did not stop with a 20-inch arm.

Dave: I mean, you might not have seen Sydney, Australia, or you might not have seen Johannesburg, South Africa, or London a dozen times, or shaken the hands of the many diverse and interesting people.

Bill: We can continue to learn every day. That’s true with most folks in all endeavors, but lifting is a definite laborious choice day after day, which is both thought provoking and humbling. We all suffer from periodic complacency; we get to the point in lifting and life where we think we know all we need to know; that’s the time we need to wake up because none of us knows very much. Even though the sport virtually never changes, we have a tendency to forget and someone has to grab us by the arm or the leg and bring us back to reality.

Dave: I see it every day in the gym in the simple physical sense. I’ll see somebody doing an exercise, a high schooler, and I say, wow, I haven’t seen that for a long time; I gotta get back to that one. Or I’ll see humility in a young athlete’s eyes and be reminded of its incomparable worth. I’ll see a gal really caring and striving persistently and be both shamed and inspired.

Have you taken any kind of extended layoff? Do you lay off periodically for short layoffs or have you taken a long one? A long one would be anything longer than two weeks; I’m talking about a month, six weeks, anything like this where you had to set your training aside for accident, injury, illness, a project or taking on another sport?

Bill: The longest layoff that I’ve had in the 60-odd years that I’ve trained was a nine-month period when I was young. I had a chain of health clubs that I was running in Northern California. It got to the point when things were tight, things were tough and I had to buckle down, and had my employees buckle down rather than go bankrupt. So I made up my mind that I was not going to train; I was going to dedicate all of my time to my business.

After a nine-month period, it got to a point where I didn’t care if the place did go bankrupt, I was not happy, and I decided I don’t care if I have to stand in line to get soup every morning, I’m going to start training again.

I can honestly tell you it was the most difficult thing I’ve ever done in my life, to get back in condition again—the condition I was before—after a nine-month layoff. I vowed if I ever stop training again, I will never begin again. That’s it. If I stop one more time, that’s it, I’m through. And that has led me: I don’t miss training. The best way to stop training is to miss a workout. If you never miss a workout, you will never stop training.

Dave: You know, getting back to motivation, that’s one of my biggest motivators. I’ve had to stop training for two six-week periods for similar things—the gym business, gym building. I tried my best to stay in shape, through eating well and physical labor, but these were uncomfortable and exasperating times. Getting back wasn’t desirable at all and being out-of-tune was worse, but not nearly as tough as it would be after nine months. A key motivator to consistent training is the emotional and physical difficulty of getting back into training and condition after stopping; it’s a lonely and heartless experience. Like rebuilding a house after a fire or flood.

This is something we must underline, Bill: Don’t let those training gaps begin by taking small layoffs and letting them, by their cancerous nature, grow, finding yourself in a position of putting your workouts off and off until you spiral downward. That’s one of the things a lot of the people suffer: getting out of shape because they just didn’t make it to the gym for short workouts when they could have. Don’t let a training gap build up in your lives. You’ll punish yourself with the words, “if only I didn’t let my workouts go.”

Bill: Even if you have an injury, I am still a firm believer you go to the gym. You may not know what to do, but do something be- cause if you let your injury take that time away from you, you put something else in its place. You’ll never get that time back to train; it’s taken up with something else. If you have to go sit on a bench and just gawk at everybody for two hours, get your can down there and gawk. Eventually you’ll start doing something. Don’t let an injury or a layoff take your time away from yourself. You’ll never get it back.

Dave: It’s true. Your injuries will heal sooner if you’re going through some sort of activity in other parts of your body that aren’t injured. There’ll be more nutrients circulating in the bloodstream, and oxygen to aid the healing. Plus it keeps your head on straight, and we’re subject to that, a lopsided head, in those down-times when we put aside our physical activities. Always train through injuries as best you can.

Bill: I prefer to train around an injury, Dave, I don’t try to train through them.

Dave: Train around them; that’s a much better choice of words.

I’ll lay off only when I sense I need it, when I feel genuine fatigue. I have to make sure I’m really fatigued and I’m not just copping to a false notion. There’s a certain ache I get in my joints and attachments that tell me they’re getting over extended, excessively used. Then I’ll go with some cardio, or I’ll take a legitimate R&R period. Maybe my central nervous system needs a rest. I have to think those through; I’ll take short four- or five-day long-weekend layoffs on rare occasions when certain bodyparts are aglow.  When traveling to do different appearances, working particularly for Life Fitness, how do you train during those times?  

Bill: If I’m on the road, I train. Luckily, in my business as a consultant for some of these companies, I’m still in the fitness industry, so there’s always equipment around me. If I’m in Pocatello, Idaho, or I’m in Timbuktu, I still train. I am not going to let my jobs take away from something I truly love to do. But by the same token, Dave, I don’t do what you do; I would not let myself get to the point in my training where I was so exhausted I had to take a layoff.

I have the rule—I always leave a little bit in the gym so I can go back and do a little bit more every day. I can’t train like you do, Dave, I truly can’t.

Dave: You’re teaching me as we sit here. 

Bill: Not necessarily. Again, it’s just a difference in philosophy. I was talking with some of my friends at the gym this morning, about you and I who have differences of opinion on some things, the bottom line, it doesn’t make a difference because you’re a true champion in what you have done.

And your attitude got you where you were; my attitude got me to where I was. Whatever drives us to keep going, that’s what we should do.

Dave: I do love to take it to the edge and I do some over-training. Yet, I do have a different philosophy on over-60 training: over- loading the body to achieve hypertrophy and assuring myself a good anabolic environment and the extra days during which to repair.

Bill: I’d like to do all that you’ve just said, but just do it over a longer period of time. Same thing exactly, just over a longer period of time.

Dave: I’ve got a hunch I’m at that time in my life when I’ll start altering these things according to some limitations I’m about to address. But I might be of that nature, like you said. I just need to blast it. We’ll see day by day.

Bill: I think it’s you, Dave. And that’s wonderful; more power to you.

Dave: I learned all about nutrition when I first moved to the Muscle Beach gym, when I came to California in 1963. I had training partners then, and I had all the California contenders and their California thinking before me. I learned the importance of protein, and the difference between carbohydrates, fat and protein. I learned a little bit about calories and I learned what worked best for me. Everybody has a different body chemistry, and they assimilate things differently and have different needs and requirements due to their physical structures, genetics, whether they’re overweight, or they’re the very muscular type or the pear shape, big belly, broad shoulders…

Bill: Endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph.

Dave: Right. So, I had generally good genetics. Nothing spectacular, though. My dad was an athlete, and I inherited his calves, his legs, and they were more like a runner’s legs.

Bill: You also had enough knowledge to understand that you worked on your weak points, and not your good points. I can re- member meeting you, and even when you were a 19- or 20-year-old kid, you still had enough knowledge to understand you had muscle groups that were lagging behind, and you spent time on them, rather than working on your arms or your chest. Or your back, which was one of your most impressive muscle groups. You probably spent less time on those and more time on the areas that had to have it, so you got some advice from somebody.

Dave: When I came to California I started to train among knowing and thinking bodybuilders like Eiferman and Dick Sweet, Zabo, Joe Gold, and began to bring balance to my thoughts and my body.

I leaned very heavily on protein, low carbohydrate and medium fat. I didn’t know about essential fatty acids and their importance. You pointed that out in a seminar we did in Phoenix before a group of firemen—a big group of firemen.

Bill: 1,500, I think it was.

Dave: We were doing a seminar together and you were an advocate of fat and I couldn’t figure that one out. Where’s Bill going with this? At the time, I thought it was just protein, protein, protein. I still consume hefty amounts of protein, but I bring in the fats and the carbs now in a reasonable way. I get, with my protein drinks, about 300 grams of protein a day, and I’m in the 3,500-calorie range. I don’t count them; these are guesstimates. My diet is very heavy in meat, red meat particularly, and then I’ll have chicken and fish, dairy and eggs, and a lot of fresh vegetables, mostly raw in salad form, and enough fruit for my vitamins and minerals. Not a whole lot of simple carbohydrates. I’ll have some potato and maybe a slice of quality bread. Lot of milk products and their carbs.

Your diet is different than that. Why don’t you explain a little about your diet? What is meal one, meal two, meal three? I’m curious.

Bill: At one time in my bodybuilding career, everything that you said I did. Then, when I was about 37 years old, I found myself lying on a couch with my uric acid so high I could hardly close my wrist and my hands. My shoulder was killing me because my uric acid was so high. I used to work as a consultant for North American Rockwell; I was the personal trainer for the astronauts… I traveled with the astronauts for ten years. At one time they did a blood sample of everyone in the program, and my cholesterol was well over 300, my triglycerides were sky high, and it was all because of my eating habits.

I had a very good friend who was a medical doctor, and he was a Seventh Day Adventist. And he said, “Bill, we can correct a lot of your medical problems, your uric acid, your triglycerides, your cholesterol and so on, with medication, but I strongly suggest you change your eating habits. Being a Seventh Day Adventist, I am what they call a lacto-ovo vegetarian.”

I knew this man; I respected this man; I loved this individual. If he would have told me to jump off the Empire State Building, I would have done it, so I changed my diet to his. In the last 35 years I haven’t eaten any red meat, fish or fowl, and I don’t intend to eat any red meat, fish or fowl until the day I die.

We keep eggs in our diet; we keep dairy products in our diet, but I don’t get anywhere near the amount of protein that you get in your diet, Dave. I don’t count carbohydrates; I don’t count calories, but I do make sure there’s some form of protein on my plate every day. I don’t really know that we need as much as 300 grams of protein a day; that’s the old school again, and if a person is suffering from joint problems it could be because of the amount of protein taken in on a daily basis… the uric acid and the triglycerides from that protein.

I probably don’t even take in 2,500 calories a day. I will probably have some type of an omelet; I’ll have cottage cheese; I’ll have some fruit. I’ll have some type of whole grains and that’s it. I’ll have some mint tea when I wake up in the morning to pray, and maybe a cup of coffee with my meal, or maybe two cups, and that’s my breakfast. And for lunch we’ll probably have some type of a salad, and if we’re having salad, it will be vegetables and I’ll put on a low-fat dressing. And then for supper my wife may have a quiche, or beans and rice, whatever it may be. It’s a very, very simple diet.

I eat three meals per day, and only three meals per day, and my total calorie intake for the day is probably less than 2,000.

Dave: 2,000?

Bill: Yes, and I’m still able to maintain a body-weight of 225-230 pounds, so I’m able to subsist on that. People ask me how to I feel compared to otherwise. How do I know, because I’ve done this for 35 years? I have nothing to compare it to. I feel fine; I have a good mental attitude.

Maybe I shouldn’t bring this up, but I think I will. I think if a person has a strong religious conviction, he could make it more important—a stronger religious conviction—if he didn’t think he had to kill an animal every day to stay alive. I don’t like that idea. I don’t kill spiders; I don’t kill bugs, I don’t kill gnats, I don’t kill flies; I don’t kill anything. And I honestly think I am stronger in my beliefs because of my eating habits than if I was a meat eater. Now maybe that sounds silly; I don’t know. But I don’t have to kill a cow every day to stay alive and I like that.

Incidentally, as we’re talking about diet, I don’t recommend people do what I do. That’s a bad way to go. This is what I do because I want to do this. If you’re going to become strict on your diet, you’d better do a tremendous amount of studying to make sure you’re getting the nutrients that you need.

And secondly, don’t commit yourself to something for a year or two, and then back off. That’s like smoking. You’re either going to smoke or you’re not going to smoke; I’m going to eat meat or I’m not going to eat meat. Because if you start it and you stop it, it ends up a failure. You don’t want those types of failures in your life. I never commit myself to do something that I know I cannot do until the day that I die.

Dave: Committing yourself to something and then failing at it is just that … failure. And that registers for your future attempts.

A failure is just a failure.

I think I eat far more protein than I need. And I probably take in a lot more nutrients than I need, but my thinking is old school. Fill the glass beyond flowing to assure all that you need and more is available at all times. It’s also uneducated. I give it plenty for this muscle repair that I’m seeking—and the rest will combine and be used as energy.

Bill: And it can be stored as fat.

Dave: And it can be stored as fat. I’ve cut my protein intake—my entire food intake—down by 25 percent lately according to my age, activity, appetite and subsequent needs.

I do like red meat. I don’t think I have any joint problems as a result of uric acid; I believe my aches are from 50 years of training and hard work at whatever occupation I’ve had—heavy woodworking, gym builder and owner. I had an accident, a fall, that knocked me out of balance, and since then my body’s been complaining like an old lady.

Bill: A lot of people are preaching small meals, eating seven times a day. I have things to do in my life that are more important than feeding my face seven times a day, and I don’t want to wake up 24 hours of every day, thinking, “Oh my, it’s 10:00 o’clock, I’ve got to eat something… it’s 2:00 o’clock, I gotta eat something.” I have more important things to do than feeding my mouth.

It’s all well and good if you have someone there taking care of you and paying all your bills, but the lifestyle in the United States today just…

Dave: You have a life outside of this?

Bill: Gosh, I hope so.

Dave: I probably get five meals in there. And I do a little grazing on occasion. But I think it’s few, very few people who follow that seven-meal plan. They do it for a while. You know, there are so many people who declare training convictions, and they are good and they are true, but I wonder how many people follow them long term. For many of the professionals, I think long term might be a two-year period during their early preparation for competition and maybe it starts to fall apart after that. They might reserve six-to- eight weeks before contest season for annual regrouping. What we read in the mags and hear coming down the pipeline is white noise.

Bill: It’s advocated a great deal now, the many meals. That’s the latest thing. It’s advocated, so everybody attempts to do it. They can’t do it, so we’re back to another failure. I’m not disparaging anyone, but how many people carry their disciplines through their lives?

Dave: My training over the years has evolved. It went from just a sport, much as a youngster who has a baseball during baseball season and a basketball during basketball season and football during football season. I played with the weights on and off, but eventu- ally I saw some development, was pleased and inspired and headed toward competition by the time I was 21. Not by choice; it was suggested by friends in the neighborhood that I go into a local contest and see what I could do. Enthusiasm registered between two and three on the scale of 10.

I began with no training desire for any competition or any titles. Did you have a similar spark, Bill? Did you train for competition?

Bill: No, it was an evolution just as yours. My biggest desire when I was a young kid was to get my picture in a magazine. That’s what I wanted; I wanted to be featured in the magazines. I’d get home and I’d look at my magazines—Strength and Health—and I’d say, “My physique’s better than this guy’s. I know it is. I’m going to get my picture in the magazine.” My drive was to be featured in the magazine. Then, I got encouragement from Leo Stern in San Diego when I was a young kid in the Navy.

Leo was able to catapult me from absolutely nothing to where I am today. And the uniqueness of it was, back in 1952 I placed third in the Mr. San Diego contest, and in 1953, I won the Mr. Southern California, Mr. California, Mr. America and Mr. Universe all in one year. So I catapulted from an absolute nobody to somebody who was somebody.

But I had no more knowledge after those twelve months, and I remember talking to Leo, saying “Leo, I’ve got to learn something about this sport because I’m going to be asked questions and I’m not going to have the answers.” I really started to take these things seriously because I had a title; I was the Mr. America winner and people might look at me as if I was somebody, so I’d better know what I’m talking about. It took that to get me really serious about the industry.

Dave: You had to figure out reasons how you did this. And this was in ’53?

Bill: Yes.

Dave: My first major title was Mr. New Jersey, in 1963, ten years later.

My training evolved, like crawling, walking, running. I learned how to do more and eventually I fell into patterns that worked for me and I understood and enjoyed. Did you invent things, discover things, make things up?

Bill: Yes, we did. I was the type of person who kept records. If you asked me today what I did February the 22nd of 1952, I could pull out the records and tell you what I did. And I could tell you the same thing for 1960, ’70. I constantly kept records. And I learned from my little ledgers, and I’d make comments as to what seemed to work and what didn’t seem to work. Through that when I com- menced to write books, I used those as a guideline. And low and behold, the things that worked for me when I was a 25-year-old kid still work for me today.

If I had to make any changes along the line, not so much in my training, it would be perhaps more in my attitude. I would have tried to be kinder and more helpful to people coming up than I have been in certain parts of my life. Because of my insecurities and lack of self-confidence, I had a point at one time if someone got in my face, there was going to be a problem. I’d try to be much more tolerant if I had it to do over again.

Dave: That was part of my considerations, too—what would I have changed in my training—and there would be nothing. It would be this evolutionary process, this changing by learning and by failing, while always being attentive to my training.

Bill: And you still are learning, Dave.

Dave: Yes, I’m still learning every day from my workouts and determining how I’ll train the next day. I kept records only for a short period of time, and that was for six months, and I fell out of love with my workouts. The record keeping was too particular; I like to be freer of the intellectual aspect of training. I don’t know much about physiology or biochemistry or the chemistry of nutrition, thinking you get the basics down and there’s nothing else you need to know about it unless you’re downright fascinated by it all. I believe the less intellectual application, the more you work through your instincts and the more you apply yourself in the gym with hard work. I think it’s coming to understand your body, working out hard, being consistent, keeping that positive attitude and looking for inspiration within the gym, within your workout, knowing that it only works if you’re very attentive, very focused and… there it is. And, if not enjoying it, absolutely appreciating it.

Those are my secrets. Never laying off, unless there’s a real good reason and you’ve spoken to yourself about it. I quietly blast it. I love to do that; that’s where I find the power of it. It doesn’t look like I’m blasting it—it looks more like an old guy beating himself with a stick. I don’t use heavy weights, but I love— need—the full-bore exertion.

Bill: Along those lines, through the record keeping that I’ve done over these number of years, it got to the point that people would come to me for advice. I’ve trained nine Mr. America winners and I think 14 Mr. Universe winners who were students over the years, a Mr. Olympia winner, Chris Dickerson, and so on. Lo and behold the training I did worked equally as well for those guys as it did for me. And because I had made some progress, when I told these guys, “Here’s what I did,” they, too, made equal progress.

If a person teaches other individuals, it’s probably best to teach by example through what you’ve gone through, rather than someone else’s theories. Chris Dickerson, for example, was a young kid—well, he wasn’t that young; he was 29, 27 years old, but had never worked out—he made tremendous progress because he believed what I told him was true because if it had worked for me, it had to work for him. He ended up being the best student I’ve ever had.

Dave: I think that one of the biggest failings among lifters today, whether 16, 20, 30 or 40, is lacking training confidence, not believing in their training because they don’t know if it’s the “right” training or not. They’ve read 10 different theories in 10 different magazines, or 10 different theories in one magazine, and they don’t know which one works. That’s the biggest complaint everyone has. They’re all concerned about what ingredients to take, because there’s so much hype about all the ingredients to build giant muscles, either by following this routine or by taking these supplements or by taking that powder.

You have to somehow, by your own evaluation, decide to whom you are going to go for the truth, and then apply yourself. And once you apply yourself to something you believe in, that you have confidence in, that’s when you apply yourself totally, knowing that this is going to work. You start towards a goal, knowing that you’re on the right path. If you doubt every time you go to the gym, you train halfheartedly. You’re wondering. Unconsciously, it’s halfhearted, even if you don’t realize it and you’re resistant.

So many people find themselves in that quandary and don’t know what to do about it, and it’s because they don’t know what source to go to, who to trust and think there must be something more. The muscle mags that are supposed to teach the student lifters only confuse them.

Bill: As an example, a person might come up to me and say, “My arms won’t grow. Doesn’t make any difference what I do, my arms won’t grow.” And I’ll say, “Is that right? Well, what do you do?” They give me the routine, “I’m doing nine sets of this, nine sets of that.” I’ll say, “That’s very interesting, and you know why your arms won’t grow? Because every time you do a barbell curl, you’ll say, ‘Number one; my arms won’t grow,’ ‘Number two; my arms won’t grow.’”

You do that 15 or 20 times when you work your arms, guess what’s going to happen? Your arms don’t grow!

And I have to come back and say that’s the reason the website you have, giving honest-to-God, intelligent information that people can bank on, is invaluable to someone who’s training by themselves and where maybe negativism comes into play. I mean, if they have no one they can go to for advice to help get them out of these quandaries—when they think something isn’t going to work—if they don’t change their attitude, it will not work.

Dave: Absolutely.

Yes, there are a lot of training theories out there, a lot of people spouting them, and they are theorists; they are not under-the-iron lifters. Their stuff sounds good on paper, sounds good as a research project, makes good copy for another article for the mags but it’s just a different pile of words to untangle. Some of the information is intellectual, brilliant and bright, but the heart of the subject we deal with is totally basic. Lift the iron hard, eat right regularly, be courageous and grow. It’s not a big science. At least it doesn’t have to be.

Bill: I’ll tell you how simple weight training is. You can make it as complex as you so desire, or as simple, but the whole thing is you either push or you pull. And that’s about as simple as you can get. That’s exactly what we do: We’re either pushing on something or we’re pulling on something. And the attitude you have in your pushing or your pulling either makes it a success or a failure. That’s it, plain and simple.

You either push or you pull, with a good attitude or a bad attitude and results take place with that.

Dave: We wanted this badly, the strength, the might that is necessary to overcome our insecurities and make a statement, because most bodybuilders—many athletes I believe—come from a need for security and a need to express themselves. We wanted the results so badly that we insisted and we persisted, we endured and persevered, and eventually we achieved. We began to understand… we needed it so badly that we came to understand it through the continual training experience—exercises and pattern of exercises, the disciplined lifestyle that accompanies it, and the eating habits.

You can make a fascination out of this and it can become very complicated. Usually the more complicated you make it, the less of a body you develop.

Bill: This is true.

Dave: Maybe the more knowledge you have enables you to write a book, but it’s the application, the consistency, the need that builds body… and when you see results and the needs being realized, it becomes a passion. That’s when the emotions and love become involved. But, boy, it can be very ugly, too, very tough and very dis- appointing. In being positive about all this, we forget to talk about the discouragement and disappointment that comes along with it, and the dismal times when things aren’t taking place. Or when you get an injury for the first time, or the second time.

Bill: And you don’t meet the expectations that you have for yourself. I mean, Mother Nature gets in there and you enter a contest and you don’t do quite as well as you’d like to. That’s kind of hard to handle.

Or else, maybe you’ve been in the limelight over a long period of time, then all of the sudden you can walk down the street and no one knows who you are. That’s kind of tough to take, too.

And I have to laugh when we’ve been talking about the evolution this whole thing. When I was a young kid, my main thing was wanting to be recognized. I wanted everyone to see me. I’d roll my shirt up, and I’d show my cranking arm. I wanted to be good, and big and strong and have everyone look at me. This went on for a long period of time, and then I got to the point I’d done pretty well, and I’d look around and say, “Why’s everybody looking at me?” I wanted them to look at me, then all of the sudden that made me mad. So what’d I do? I started covering up because I didn’t want to be recognized anymore. You can take it from one extreme, where you want to be looked at, to the point where you don’t want to be looked at. It’s crazy.

Dave: And your training grows along with you.

Folks, you should be able to glean through this and come up with 10 important factors to apply that are easy to list and probably difficult to apply, but are under your control, things that you can do if you wanted to without making your life too strict and unbearable. And the results would be in your disciplines, in your well-being, and in your longevity, in your appearance—your strength and might in other areas of your life would far exceed the difficulties you’d gone through by applying what we’ve been talking about. You just have to figure out what those top 10 are for you. But there’s no secrets here, there’s nothing profound. These are things you can start to simply apply today on a regular basis and bring them in more and more as you grow, whether you’re a 19-year-old, or a 30-year-old. If you stick by these 10 basic precepts, they will be the things that count most.

Bill: I think it’s important to mention that A-number one, you’ve got to be very careful when you’re setting up specific goals for your- self. Make sure they’re goals you can achieve. If you were fortunate enough to have been blessed like you’ve been, Dave, and blessed like I’ve been, with the help that you and I’ve gotten—and I think you’ll admit a lot of the success you’ve had was because other people have been willing to help you and share their knowledge with you—but people often have a tendency to set goals for themselves that aren’t realistic. You can’t reach them; it’s impossible.  I also think that for most people, the goals that they set when it comes to weight training are not health goals, but cosmetic goals. And that, too, can be very, very dangerous as we grow older. So a guy might say, “Jiminy Christmas, I tried weight training and I didn’t see any difference. I don’t grow, so I’m going to quit.” Well, that’s asinine! The rewards that you get, other than the size of your arm, are well worth the time that you spend on yourself to become a healthier individual, psychologically and physiologically.

If we were to name the top 10, I would be very careful not to name them the way you and I have played this game, Dave. Because we’ve played it on a high rung on the ladder, and we’ve been ungodly fortunate; very few people have been able to accomplish what we’ve been able to accomplish.

As an example, I hear people tell their kids, “You can be anything you want in life.” I disagree. I could have never become president of the United States. I can tell you that for sure.

Dave: Secretary of Defense, maybe. Seriously, I agree. That’s a cheap self-help marketing philosophy.

Bill: I would be very careful and try to keep these main points addressed not to hardcore muscle heads such as you and me, but to the average person who just wants to live a happier and healthier life. And just spend quality time with his or her family, and go out of this world feeling fairly good about themselves.

Dave: Of course. These 10 precepts would be things that they could slowly bring into their lives as a forward movement towards a goal, not even indicating what the goal might be. But they would all be good, in a forward direction for health, well-being, and, as you point out, it’s not only the physical goals or the cosmetic goals that we gain. Folks, you’ll be amazed, if you stick to this stuff, even if it’s for physical and cosmetic goals, how many other things are brought in as soon as you start noticing the other characteristics that are improved and brought to the forefront, developed and nurtured. You’ll be so grateful for them. And those are the things that start to form you as a person.

Bill, in review what would the big 10 look like? I see realistic goal setting for everyone—reach but don’t strain yourself in the process. And once you see your goal, make a commitment to it. Train consistently. Keep your training simple—not easy, but stick to the basics.

Bill: It’s all about discipline. You must persist, persevere, press on with patience and you’ve got to trust your plan… trust yourself.

Dave: Yes. This is tough in the beginning. Whatever you do, trust it and trust yourself, even if it’s not perfect, it will work and teach you the better way—the right way. Apply yourself willingly to the work at hand and with confidence.

Bill: Don’t over-train. Train hard and sensibly. Be sure to get plenty of rest to repair and grow. And eat right.

Dave: That’s a big one by itself. You and I are proof there are a variety of ways to go, but we can all agree that we need plenty protein for muscle growth, a wide assortment of amino acids and vitamins and minerals and other factors for complete and healthy system functions—hormonal, central nervous system, digestive system.

Bill: And many of these ingredients come from living, uncooked foods—fresh salads, vegetables, fruits, nuts, milk products and eggs. We need our complex carbs for energy and good fats for energy and cellular health.

Dave: We won’t talk about over eating at this point, except this: Don’t. It is wise to eat smaller meals more frequently when on the hunt for new muscle, and to feed yourself 30 to 45 minutes before and after your workout for energy and repair. Protein drinks work wonders here.

Bill: When working out focus on exercises and the muscles and the atmosphere around you. Be totally present. Too many guys and gals lose interest fast and let their minds wander. This is ineffective training.

Dave: Okay for play, but not the real deal. To the extent my mind wanders and I lose concentration, I have failed in my workout. I maintain order in my training workout to workout—exercise sequence, sets and reps—but suggest flexibility to work around injury or overworked areas or to satisfy moods or urges. This might sound a little advanced in our elemental list.

Bill: It’s good to introduce the power of our inner mind. Listen to your instincts, use common sense. Very important. Not all the information you get is good. Train yourself along the way. You’re smarter than you think. You’re lifting weights—training.

Dave: We’re sort of entering intermediate territory, but be will- ing to experiment—trial-and-error doesn’t produce error but growth. It’s fun, daring, inventive and instructive. However, don’t fall for the biggest mistake of all: seeking easy solutions and secrets. As they say, there ain’t none.

ill: Along with intermediate level training and experimenting, bring in some powerlifting movements to accommodate the muscle- building. Be wise and build mass and density. Just don’t get hung up on the numbers.

Dave: I agree. Some heavy lifting is productive, fulfilling and fun… adds dimension. Just don’t let your ego lead you by the nose.

Avoid injury.

Bill: Be strong, avoid injuries and train without interruption. If you get an injury—and you will—work around the injury. You’ll heal faster, lose less ground and keep your head on straight. And don’t become complacent or arrogant. These attitudes are for losers and often lead to injuries.

Dave: And don’t become apathetic or uninspired. Don’t submit to discouragement, which is right around the corner. Avoid and overcome these weaknesses by intelligent hard work and positive thinking. Get tough. Be tough.

Bill: Don’t take a layoff till the fat lady sings. Modify your workouts, but don’t put them on hold. A day leads to a week, a week to a month and before you know it you can say, “I used to lift weights.”

Dave: Hope and prayer work.

Bill: I agree… they work in everything.

Dave: Very good. The Big 10 looks more like the Big 20. Our list grew and it applies to most every musclehead, beginner to advanced.

We’ve spent about two hours just talking back and forth, and it’s been very enlightening for me. More than enlightening, it’s plain comfortable and rewarding to spend time with Bill in this way, for you all, and especially for me.

I’m fortunate to have made this trip north to spend some time with Bill and Judy, to know him more as a person as well as a lifelong champion. We go back to 1963—most of you know the story; I think we talked about it at the seminar—I went to Bill for my first advice as to whether I should or shouldn’t enter a Mr. America contest.

It’s very special to be able to look back at the time we’ve spent together, how we’ve bumped into each other on the road over the years and have sincerely supported and endorsed each other.

Bill: I have to laugh. Dave and I have talked more bodybuilding these last two hours than we’ve talked for 40 years. We don’t carry on conversations like this normally. We don’t do this. This is just something that Dave suggested we do and that we’ve done, but this isn’t what we normally do when we get together. This is not the case at all.

I don’t know what Dave does in his training today; Dave doesn’t know what I do in my training today. I just know tomorrow Dave’s going to train and I can tell you tomorrow I, too, am going to train.

When a guy asked, “When are you going to have your last workout?” I said, “When the put they lid on the box, that’s my last workout.”

Dave: Keep pushing, Bill.